Multiple Attacks per Round Weapon Abilities

Do you have suggestions? Questions? Are there mechanical or balance problems?

Multiple Attacks per Round Weapon Abilities

Postby Matt' » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:02 pm

Since the generally SNAFU with variant character speeds four years ago, there has been a general 'taboo' against anyone acting more often than anyone else. While the taboo has been broken by certain UMAs, that's really an exception.

I'm finding that problematic for fighters. While it's a nice fighter archetype to deal massive damage, it would also be nice to make it possible to develop a 'fast' fighter archetype. But that means breaking the taboo on actions/round.

Given the general nature of the combat clock, more actions are bad, especially when someone has so many MORE actions that other people. During the bad old days, it took YEARS to get one around the lock, with multiple people taking 3+ actions per round. I don't want to go back to that. But I don't think it would be game-breaking to have ONE character whose 'specialness' comes from being able to act more times than anybody else in a given round.
Matt'
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:45 pm

Re: Multiple Attacks per Round Weapon Abilities

Postby Maugh » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:13 am

The current weapontechs allow characters wielding light, two-weapon tactics to attack with both weapons at a time, at the same or different targets. The drawback is that they can't crit with either. Same goes for bows and double-shot, etc.
"Use the best: Linux for servers, Mac for graphics, Windows for Solitaire."
User avatar
Maugh
Site Admin
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:36 am

Re: Multiple Attacks per Round Weapon Abilities

Postby Matt' » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:13 pm

Yes. Not quite what I was talking about, though.

The 'not crit' rule has always bothered me, and the damage has never been comparable to that which a more amp-centric weapon can dish out. (I've half a dozen characters who've used the light sword).
Matt'
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:45 pm

Re: Multiple Attacks per Round Weapon Abilities

Postby Wazat » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:13 pm

I worry a bit about power explosion though. Allowing crits with a technique like the spear's Great Flurry, for example, could be terrifying. It's already pretty amazing on a longspear dealing d10 damage (dealing 4d10 damage as an average action). Letting it crit on 3/6 (reduced to 2/4 with Sneak Attack) while the player is back-attacking the target basically means that target is taking anywhere from 4d10 to 12d10 damage, based on how many times the player crits or double-crits. Now add to that the ability to append other effects to critical hits, like sweep (knock prone) and precision strike (ignore armor), and your 4-attack technique becomes a repeatable doom attack that out-competes many high-level spells at little to no cost. And it's average attack speed, so you might attack again before they can even turn around or stand up.

The reason I bring this up is, I was recently looking at doing this with a character, and I remember thinking "Dang! It's too bad I can't crit with my multi-attacks. I could... oh, I see." ;)

So multi-attacking needs to have some penalty, like drastically dropping the speed or accuracy, and/or not allowing crits or not allowing any other effects attached to crits, etc.

In terms of making multiattacks compete with other power builds, we'd want to first lay down the actual results of those builds so we know what we're trying to match. About how powerful is this fighter or weaponmaster meant to be?
Wazat
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:00 pm

Re: Multiple Attacks per Round Weapon Abilities

Postby Maugh » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:19 pm

I've had this conversation a couple of times with Josh, now, about multi-attacks for two-weapon fighters. The general consensus is that it is an inferior strategy in most cases. It duplicates armor, reduces overall damage by limiting crits, and gives the chance for half of your attack to miss.

The advantage would be splitting damage across multiple targets, but strategically, that's rarely the best option, because you can drop larger targets much more quickly by racking up big damage than you do by spreading things thin, which is better because it halves the damage output ofyour opponent by dropping targets faster.

So how do multiple attacks and AoE's compete in damage? The correct answer is that they probably shouldn't. A pure DPS kind of a build is a great, fun character to play, but that's not the only kind of character, and that's not even the only kind of character to be successful in combat. Combat doesn't have to be just about raw damage output, but about timing and motion, which puts more responsibility on the DM to include enemies that are more about location and precision than just about dropping big stacks of HP.

As a storyteller, we really need to be careful not to always stack HP too high. Mobs of minor enemies are scary when they start whelming and stacking up, but become more vulnerable when considering AoE effects and multiple attacks. These kinds of enemies should be relatively common. They favor the fast, light characters with multiple attacks, as opposed to the heavy, armored tanks that are better managed by the heavier hitting characters. Both of these monster archetypes are important, because they shift the game from damage output strategies to target elimination strategies.

To help explain this, below are for monster archetypes, which each provide strategy to a different kind of character, without direct, apples-to-apples DPS comparisons.

A. SWARMS: Dumping a horde of tiny monsters on the map makes players collectively crap themselves. This favors AoE effects, and if you spread the swarm out a little more, favors characters who can move around and dispatch a few per action without racking up the feedback.

B. Clifftop/Balcony Archers: An out-of-reach character raining death on the party favors players with range and mobility options. They don't have to have high hp to be a satisfying kill when a cat pounces up to knock them out, or an archer makes a precision shot to take them down.

C. Superskilled: Characters with a very high skill cap, but a relatively lower damage output force the players to work together and manage their own strategic bonuses in order to compensate for a large skill difference. Alternately, this difference can be achieved through equipmet and/or circumstance bonuses. Monsters can get these too.

D. HP Tank: This is where the DPS characters shine. Dealing a couple dozen damage per round is the focus of some characters, and should be around sometimes, just not all monsters, all the time.

E. Armor Tank: Lower HP monsters with high armor make people switch tactics, and favor the heavy-hitting individual attacks, like the Mauls & Maces.

F. Switch Gimmicks: A goblin holding a rope, which releases a trap for the whole group, or an elemental powering a door, there are some situations where one target is favored over another, turning attacks into wider tactical decisions, instead of just number-crunching.

Creative storytelling can make multi-attack options favorable, rather than just another way to get more damage per round.
"Use the best: Linux for servers, Mac for graphics, Windows for Solitaire."
User avatar
Maugh
Site Admin
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:36 am

Re: Multiple Attacks per Round Weapon Abilities

Postby TheMatt » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:40 am

Matt' wrote:Yes. Not quite what I was talking about, though.

The 'not crit' rule has always bothered me, and the damage has never been comparable to that which a more amp-centric weapon can dish out. (I've half a dozen characters who've used the light sword).


It was more the issue of the 'attack at the same time.

Maugh wrote:The current weapontechs allow characters wielding light, two-weapon tactics to attack with both weapons at a time, at the same or different targets. The drawback is that they can't crit with either. Same goes for bows and double-shot, etc.


Almost never does that happen. What the double weapons really enable is the ol' one-two, where the sequence of attacks is faster than the individual attacks.

Next tier being a 'flurry' of attacks, where time used for the second attack is also used to ready the 'primary' weapon for an additional attack.

Not sure staffs are any better at that than any other weapon. Real advantage of spears/staves is the shear reach of them.
"I can't tell if what you are saying is too profound for me to understand, or just insane".
TheMatt
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:58 pm

Re: Multiple Attacks per Round Weapon Abilities

Postby TheMatt » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:44 am

Wazat wrote:So multi-attacking needs to have some penalty, like drastically dropping the speed or accuracy, and/or not allowing crits or not allowing any other effects attached to crits, etc.


Being really fond of the weapon techs, my preference would be 'cost'. At 100 points, I've typically bought all the abilities, am skillcapped, and am kind of left twiddling my thumbs...
"I can't tell if what you are saying is too profound for me to understand, or just insane".
TheMatt
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:58 pm

Re: Multiple Attacks per Round Weapon Abilities

Postby TheMatt » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:46 am

Maugh wrote: Combat doesn't have to be just about raw damage output, but about timing and motion, which puts more responsibility on the DM to include enemies that are more about location and precision than just about dropping big stacks of HP.


Lower ranges on spells would help. I really like a piled-up hurly-burly of melee and team attacks.
"I can't tell if what you are saying is too profound for me to understand, or just insane".
TheMatt
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:58 pm


Return to Rules Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Style by Webdesign www, książki księgarnia internetowa podręczniki