Bug Report II!

Do you have suggestions? Questions? Are there mechanical or balance problems?

Bug Report II!

Postby Maugh » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:57 pm

So we just released the second print run of the Mayhem Vol One, at the Comicon, and I have to say, we had a really great time. Met a lot of great local gamers, got to run a few games, (a few meaning a LOT.) And got a pretty good response from the people here in Salt Lake. I'm very proud of our hometown. People really came out in costume and came out in force.

Anyway, I opened this thread up to identify specific problems in the second book. There is no such thing as a perfect edit, especially for a company our size, and there are still a few minor hiccups in the text. If you find something, post it here, so that people can be aware of any minor edits.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby Maugh » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:11 pm

In the Charisma Abilities, the "Small Favors" title got duplicated. The Cha 11 should read: "Freeloader"
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby Maugh » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:16 pm

In the Divine Abilities, the Divine Healer should have their second-to-last tier ability be called "Greater Healer's Tact," and it should end with, gain a +3 bonus". Since this is very similar to other abilities in the book, this should be a clear intent.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby ShadowKyogre » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:02 pm

[Undead section of the racial chapter] Page 52 of the book stats that Liches get bonuses for Intelligence and Intuition. However, page 82 of the book stats that Liches get bonuses for Intelligence and Willpower. The latter makes the liche more tanky than what was intended, I think.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby Maugh » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:23 pm

Good catch. I would roll with intuition. It makes them more front-loaded for elemental magics, and limits the willpower advantage for both consciousness limit and for feedback capacity. I will get to your other post too, by the way, I just want to make sure I can take the time to give it a thoughtful response.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby ShadowKyogre » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:19 pm

Maugh wrote:Good catch. I would roll with intuition. It makes them more front-loaded for elemental magics, and limits the willpower advantage for both consciousness limit and for feedback capacity. I will get to your other post too, by the way, I just want to make sure I can take the time to give it a thoughtful response.


All righty.

There's two more minor things that I noticed while I was polishing the for fun sheet I told you about:
* The Carnac seems to have Constrictor twice in its ability list. Also, it says Viper instead of Carnac for the second Constrictor entry.
* Same thing with Soul Thieves and Crushing Soul.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby Maugh » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:49 pm

One more critical one that we ran into last night.

The Divine Healer has 3 targeted heal spells. The first should heal 15, the second should heal 30, and the last should heal 60. The last one is listed in the book as 30, which is an error. It should be 60. This makes sense, since otherwise it would be a more expensive version of the 30 point heal.

I about had an anuerism when I saw that one.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby wolfram » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:45 pm

Trained fist and fist have different stats in the main weapon list (pg 46) and in the unarmed techs (pg 119).
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby ShadowKyogre » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:10 pm

wolfram wrote:Trained fist and fist have different stats in the main weapon list (pg 46) and in the unarmed techs (pg 119).

Which stats're different for those two? I'm not seeing a difference, BUT, the strength requirement for the gaunlet is inconsistent (str 10 on 46, none on 119).
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby wolfram » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:43 pm

I think they became inconsistent in the most recent color version of the core content.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby ShadowKyogre » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:59 pm

wolfram wrote:I think they became inconsistent in the most recent color version of the core content.


Oooooh, okay. I don't have the color version on hand, just the B&W pdf.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby Ryu » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:45 pm

The attribute "Intuition" is missing completely on page 9 of the current BW PDF, but not in the 1st print.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby Maugh » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:09 pm

Gotcha. I'm pretty sure the PDF B/W is a round behind the books. Reason for that is my MIA wife/graphic designer, who is currently directing for a youth theater, and so took a break from helping me out with the Mayhem book. I'll be getting that back up as soon as I can talk her into doing it.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby Wazat » Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:53 pm

I just got my new edition book, thanks Maugh! I gave my older edition to a friend in St. George to try to create some converts there. :D This friend said he really liked the system when he played earlier, and would ask his D&D group if they'd like to try it out after their current Pathfinder campaign ends.

Here's my list of Bugs etc (I'll list more as I give the book a more in-depth read; also I apologize for any repeats of what's already been noted above):

Divine Healer says Yazata near the top of its ability listing. BTW, I'm saddened by the loss of the Yazata -- but I'll post those woes in another thread.

I still haven't found a section briefing how mounted combat works. Page 40 and a few other locations have enough space for a paragraph, but you might need more than that. I recommend this:
You can mount or dismount as an Average action. You and your mount act together during your turn: ordering your mount to attack or move is an action that takes time like any other, but you use your mount's statistics for attacking, moving, etc instead of your own.

Combining actions with movement still works similarly: for example, you can attack at the end of your mount's charge. However, you can't attack in the middle of a movement without the Ride By Attack tech. If you find or buy a mount, the GM will determine its stats based on its creature type.


Basic horse stats are really needed. Even if it's the only beast listed, it would set a valuable standard against which all custom mounts are measured. And it would help GMs consistently create the correct stats for a mount instead of something grossly over- or under-powered.

Skill Kits (healing kit, lockpick kit, etc) still do not list a price. For my campaign, I've chosen 15 gold for a standard kit that gives +2. Players are assumed to have basic cooking/etc gear, and the kit costing 15 gold gives a +2 bonus because it adds tools that far exceed the benefits of using nothing or the basic items normally available. For example, a lock kit has specialized tools for picking a lock, while the alternative is using a knife or hair pin to try to get it open.
A +4 kit costs 50 gold, a substantial amount of money. These are exotic kits of masterwork design, and sometimes magically enhanced... hence the +4 bonus.
Kits are also large and heavy -- carrying two would often be bulky and heavy, so a pack mule would help a lot.
I chose these values so the players wouldn't just load up with one kit of each type and trivialize every skill check that a kit could affect.

I also recommend listing some starting wealth values for GMs -- I severely overestimated how much I should give Skill Cap 5 players at the start of my first campaign. My new campaign is starting with Skill Cap 1 players, and they get 6 gold to start. I'm guessing that's the middle range of starting gold?

Page 52's summary for the Divine Healer is "A Divine Healer". Looks like filler text. ;) I recommend something like "Divine healer who restores life with her spirit power"...?

The divine healer's abilities could use some rewording. Divine awareness should end with "but they may still be killed". Death ward's last sentence should read "If they leave the range of this effect, they can die normally."
She heals with divine regen at the end of each round, but I don't remember where the book specifies how an ability like that works. I assume it's always at the 12:00 position, since there's nothing that initiates the ability (unlike a spell etc).
As mentioned already, the healing doesn't scale properly with sublime healing and healer's tact cuts off early.

Iron Taboo for the fae and natural shapeshifters doesn't specify which kinds of metal. It says iron and steel and other metals. Does this mean only ferrous metals? Or all metals, including gold and silver? This came up because my changeling player wanted to pick up a gold coin, but I told him that would hurt. Was this incorrect? I recommend being more specific -- ferrous metals, iron- and copper-based metals, all refined metals (including gold and silver), or non-precious metals. Something along those lines.

In the race entries, sometimes charisma is listed before cunning, sometimes after (looks like the last holdout of this bug). I believe it's just the succubus, blighted and kitsune. They're consistent on page 52's table, but not in their individual entries.

Sylph's advanced Fly ability should mention whether or not this allows ranged attacks and spellcasting while hovering or flying. Do they need to take the flight techniques separately that allow this, or is it all included in the racial ability?

Werewolf & Wererat don't say they're incompatible with shapeshifters like the changeling or kitsune, but changeling and kitsune say they're incompatible with other shapeshifters. The werekin entries should list the incompatibility for clarity.

Crossbow statistics on page 107 still do not list a reload speed (should be fast).

Weapons that can be melee or thrown should list their ranges with a slash (for example, dagger on page 109). Hence, "Attack Skill" will list Melee/Thrown and "Range" will list 1/5. This will help distinguish between entries that list melee vs thrown distances, and multiple melee range options (e.g. spear, scythe, etc).

Page 119 should list the Trained Fist in the yellow box on the left, explaining that it can only be used if you take the Trained Fist technique.

I also recommend the unarmed technique Finesse say "with unarmed and natural attacks", so players know that creatures with claws and teeth can take unarmed finesse to slash and bite with agility. (at least, I assume this is an intended usage)

Page 196 (conversion from d20 systems) gives a good idea of the effective range for attributes, but page 9 does not. It should. Even a paragraph saying "4 is notably inhibited, 8 is the human average, and 12 is the typical upper bound for humans" would be immensely valuable in setting the tone for players and the GM when they're analyzing a character's stats. I built the following table for my campaign, using humans as the baseline:
Code: Select all
 2 Severely disabled
 4 Notably Inhibited
 6 Below Average
 8 Average
 10 Above Average
 12 Exceptional
 14 Superhuman
 16 Unreal



An aside (not a "bug", but a suggestion):
I also gave extensive descriptions on my campaign's wiki of each attribute. This was in response to powergaming players who tanked certain stats down to 2 with the point buy, then tried to ignore any implications that would have. I wanted to emphasize that the stat is more important than the associated skills.

More specifically, I wanted players to understand that tanking their intelligence, charisma, cunning, etc has serious implications in-game even if those skill rolls aren't important to their character. You can't set your intelligence and cunning to 2 in the point-buy and expect your maxed-out intuition to cover all three roles. So I described in detail what each attribute does to the character even outside of the skill rolls that use it, so players knew there was value in intelligence and cunning even if you're not picking locks or sneaking. Your willpower is more than your HP and MP stat. Etc.

I think you should have something similar in the book -- descriptions focused on what these stats mean to the player outside of their associated skill rolls and mechanical benefits like HP (it's fine if your descriptions differ from mine -- it's the detail that matters). Whether you're purely roleplaying or rolling skills, this is how your stats affect you. Page 9 lists mechanical aspects of each stat and briefly describes the positive effects of having it, but I felt I needed to describe the negative aspects of not having it as well as fleshing out the positive.

Even if you tucked it away in chapter 10 (storytelling), it would help a ton for both the player and the GM to be able to see those more detailed expansions. And I think powergamey players would abuse their stats less if the less-than-veteran GM had more tools to hold them to account. ;) I now know from experience and I've coached my players on what not to do, but even just a single double-sided page added to chapter 10 would save a lot of players and GMs a lot of grief, IMO, and greatly enrich the roleplay aspects of the game.


That's all for now. I hope this is helpful! Keep up the good work, I love this system.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby Maugh » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:23 pm

Divine Healer/Yazata text edits.
HATE. I pull my hair out over minor things like this. And now that I have a copy editor, she understands my pain. I'll draft this tonight.

Mounted Combat:
This should really be in there, and is not. The trick with adding it at this point comes down to pagination. Because of the way that the spreads work, if I add more than a minor paragraph anywhere in the book, I have to either remove something to compensate, or find enough content to add two full pages, so that later spreads are not affected. Plus, if I make page changes, I would need to re-do the index and table of contents. This turns a relatively minor edit into several days worth of changes. It's something that probably should be done, but that kind of work gets kicked down the priority list quite a bit.

Skill Kit Costs and Pricing
The economics system is built on gold values, and gold is expensive. Gold should be reserved for game-changing objects, such as property and magic items. Most basic skill kits should include basic tools that would be relatively cheap. In short, anything worth less than 1 gold is not worth the time it would take to manage it. I always hated the micro-management of buying every bit of rope and tackle that the players needed.

It is far more effective to tell the players that they can pick one or two skill kits. If they insist on taking more, then they'd need to bring a wagon or mule to haul all of the crap that they're bringing around.

Keep in mind that this kind of gear doesn't fare well in dungeon crawls or chase scenes. Plus, characters are partially defined by the gear they haul around, showing which skills are important enough for them to bring extra tools. A character who brings too much gear might get the reputation of being very fastidious, or of being a pack-rat.

Iron Taboo
Honestly, it should affect all metal. I'm okay with a little ambiguity, because it lets a group pick which way they want to run it, which is fine, but the Fae should be disconnected from the civilized world. They handle possessions differently than the human race would, so money is kind of different for them. The Changeling and other characters affected by the taboo are related, to some degree, to the fae, which makes that translate to them as well.

On the other hand, if the players don't want to take that part of the characterization so seriously, they maybe shouldn't have to. I liked the idea of the Fae as very different, elemental beings grounded in nature, operating on a fundamentally different social level, rather than pointy-eared humans that just happen to like trees. If a player disagrees, I would let them, so long as it doesn't interfere with other players.

For precious metals in particular, this has further effect. Precious metals have subtle supernatural properties. They interfere with the ghostly undead, such as the gheist and ghostwalker, they provide a weakness for were-critters, and in turn, they should present a liability for the Fae as well. Just so happens that the Fae are more sensitive to other metals as well.

Charisma/Cunning Order
Check. I'll look into that.

Sylph's Advanced Flight
Needs clarification, yes. I would let them do things like attack and cast. I know this makes their flight busted. They have a lot of disadvantages, though, and are relatively fairly easy to drop. Plus, if I remember right, they don't get the raw distance of winged flight, which if you've seen it used, yet, covers a huge amount of distance very quickly.

Crossbow Statistics
This has been a problem in recent games. The crossbow speed is completely backwards. It needs to be a fast action to fire, and a slow action to reload, not the other way around. I realize this has some balance issues, but there are better ways to deal with that. Crossbows are dangerous. This definitely needs more attention.

Weapon Ranges
Yeah, we've found a few bugs with this as well. I will be looking into it.

Trained Fist Page 119. & unarmed attacks.
Check. I'll look into this. I agree. it should mention unarmed attacks. Tiger claws, etc.

Page 198/9 Attribute descriptions.
Good point. I'll look into it.

On Wikis.
I did look over your wiki the other day, and it looks like a great tool. You've put a lot of work into it, and I appreciate that. I've been trying to make progress on my own set of tools, which would be built into the website, but this has been much harder than it sounds, and I haven't been able to get it to completion. This is EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING, but time is limited, and my to-do list is long.

So, to clarify, I probably can't do a wiki at this point in time. It would be too time consuming, and I'd rather put my time into generating art and content for the second book, as well as bug-fixing the first book. On top of that, we've been trying to do some more marketing to try and get enough support to pay for a wider distribution, which would help us to put more time into this project.

Thank you for your ongoing support with this. Posting these bugs is immensely useful. it gives me a very direct to-do list of things to fix, rather than having to hunt through for problems, which leads to having my eyes bleed from reading the text over and over and over again, and STILL not catching the problems.

Thanks again. I'll address all of these issues shortly.
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby Wazat » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:48 pm

No problem! As a software engineer I can't stress enough how helpful it is to have a second pair of eyes on a task. Someone fresh from the outside will spot what you've failed to notice for years, simply by virtue of not having labored over it for so long.

I'll let you know if I find more issues.

Looks like I need to change how I'm handling skill kits. Thanks for the clarification. Weight and bulkiness appear to be the main factor to prevent players from just having every kit available... but that's still pretty exploitable. ;) My party would divvy out their kit assignments to make sure they have all the bases covered.

Wiki:
What you should do is bribe your favorite sysadmin or other computer junkie with food. Or drug him and lock him in the basement -- don't worry, he's used to that sort of thing by now. With proper incentive, he could quickly set up a basic wiki with no content, and make sure it's ready to go for other users to start editing (with bot-blocking logins etc). Once it's set up, it should require little to no further work on your part.

From there, post in the forum and encourage the community to contribute their favorite pages (they will not need to be bribed with food or freedom -- wikis just work this way). Filling out the wiki shouldn't be something you have to do -- people love the game, and they'll happily fill out an article or two each. With time you'll have a complete or nearly-complete wiki. And your community of users will help maintain the wiki over the long-term -- fixing mistakes, tagging inconsistencies or unclear text, clearing away spam and vandalism, all while you take a hands-off approach. Probably they'll start linking to their own world-building projects and other custom content too.

So step 1: Bribe or drug a nearby computer person. Does your basement door lock from the outside?
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby TheMatt » Tue May 06, 2014 11:49 am

So, what do we bribe you with?
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Re: Bug Report II!

Postby TheMatt » Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:12 pm

I wrote up a bug report for the weapon techs, and then posted it elsewhere. I'm reposting it below.

Problems: Same name, different tech, or different wording:

Awkward Angle Passive If the opponent is within 1 meter and attempts to parry with a non-shield weapon, gain a +2 technique bonus.
Awkward Angle Active On opposed Parry to a Melee attack, gain a +2 bonus. This only functions for the kama end.
Awkward Angle Active When the opponent tries to Parry a Melee attack, gain a +2 bonus.
----

Chain Swing Active As a very fast action, use a chain to wrap around a tree limb or other object, or a hook, spike or grapple to grab a ledge or embed in a solid surface within 5 meters, setting the chain in that surface. This can support the weight up of to 500 pounds to swing around that object above the ground. Swinging around is an average action, and the warrior may land on any location within 5 meters of their point of contact. There must be enough room to do this. Only for chain end.
Chain Swing Active Use a chain to wrap around a tree limb or other object, or a hook, spike or grapple to grab a ledge or embed in a solid surface As a very fast action, lash out to any object or surface within 5 meters, setting the chain in that surface. Use this contact to support the weight up of to 500 pounds and to swing around that object without staying on the ground. Swinging around is an average action, and the warrior may land on any location within 5 meters of their point of contact. This only functions if there is enough room to swing without hitting the ground.
---
Devastating Strike Active Make a very fast action to prepare an attack. The next Melee attack deals one extra damage die.
Devastating Strike Active Make a very fast action to prepare an attack. The next Melee attack deals one extra damage die. This does not count as a crit.
----
Disarm Active Attack with a -2 penalty. If this attack hits, instead of doing damage, make an opposed grapple check to force that opponent to drop their weapon.
Disarm Crit If a double-crit is rolled, the opponent drops their weapon.
---
Double Toss Active Throw two weapons, one from each hand, striking two separate targets. Each attack suffers a -2 penalty, and neither can crit.
Double Toss Active Throw two weapons, one from each hand, striking two separate targets. Each attack suffers a -2 penalty.
---
Elbow Strike Crit If a double-crit is rolled, the target suffers a -2 penalty to all skill actions taken for the remainder of combat.
Elbow Strike Active Make an attack with a -2 penalty. If this attack is successful and deals at last 5 damage, choose a limb. That individual suffers a -2 penalty to all actions taken using that limb. This lasts until the target has made a medic check with a dificulty of 15, or until they receive some arcane healing.
---
Harvest Crit If a double-crit is rolled, the individual is pulled off their feat, landing prone.
Harvest Active If an attack hits by 5 or more, make a Strength check, opposed by Strength or Agility to knock an opponent off their feet.
---
Kneecap Crit If a double-crit is rolled, the target suffers a -2 movement penalty for the remainder of combat.
Kneecap
Active Make an attack with a -2 penalty. If this attack is successful and deals at last 5 damage, that individual suffers a -2 movement penalty. This lasts until the target has made a medic check with a dificulty of 15, or until they receive some arcane healing.
---
Leverage Passive Using the weapon as a leverage, gain a +2 bonus to Grapple checks.
Leverage Passive When defending against Grapple checks, gain a +2 technique bonus.
---
Parry Wrap Passive If the opponent successfully parries a whip attack, the warrior may use the Wrap ability as a free action, automatically succeeding on the attack roll.
Parry Wrap Passive While making a successful Parry action, after a Spin action, the warrior may wrap their opponent’s weapon as though they had just used the weaponwrap ability. Once wrapped, they may make an opposed Strength check to disarm their opponent as a very fast action. This only functions with the chain end.
Parry Wrap Passive While making a successful Parry, the warrior may wrap their opponent’s weapon with their chain. Once wrapped, they may make an opposed Strength check to disarm their opponent as a very fast action. The opponent may disengage as a very fast action. Nether may attack while the weapon is wrapped.
---
Precision Strike Crit If a crit is rolled, ignore up to 5 points of armor reduction.
Precision Strike Active Make an attack with an action speed 2 segments slower than normal. If this attack hits by 3 or more, ignore up to 5 points of damage reduction.
---
Weapon Hook Passive After a successful parry with a margin of at least 5, attempt to disarm the attacking opponent.
Weapon Hook Crit If a crit is rolled, the warrior may make an opposed Strength or Agility check to disarm their opponent.
---
Weapon Wrap Passive After a Spin action, the warrior may make a Melee attack with a -2 penalty. If this attack is successful, rather than dealing damage, the chain wraps around the target’s weapon. All attacks made with a wrapped weapon suffer a -2 penalty. Once wrapped, they may immediately make an opposed Strength check to disarm their opponent.
Weapon Wrap Active If an opponent successfully parries with a non-shield weapon, the chain wraps around the target’s weapon. All attacks made with a wrapped weapon suffer a -2 penalty. Once wrapped, they may make an opposed Strength check to disarm their opponent. The opponent can disengage as a very fast action. Neither weapon may attack until disengaged.
---
Wrap Active Instead of attacking a target, the warrior may attack their weapon. If the attack is successful, the weapon is wrapped in the whip. The weapon may be disentagled by either combatant as a very fast action or dropped as a free action. Until the weapon is disentangled, neither weapon may be used.
Wrap Active Make a Melee attack with a -2 penalty. If attack is successful, that target is wrapped in the chain. Unwinding the chain requires a slow action for either the target or for the warrior. Both may also make a strength check to pull the other toward them, or pull the other along. A wrapped target may attack or defend normally. This only functions with the chain end.
Wrap Active Make a Melee attack with a -2 penalty. If this attack is successful, that target is wrapped in the chain. Unwinding the chain requires a slow action for either the target or for the warrior. Either the target or the warrior may make a strength check in oreder to pull the other toward them, or to move, pulling the other along. A wrapped target may attack or defend normally.
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